Somebody read through a whole report on the matter, and on his blog he goes into it in quite some detail. See: http://terveys.blogspot.com/2006/08/insulin-index.html

“As observed in previous studies, consumption of protein or fat with carbohydrate in creases insulin secretion compared with the insulinogenic effect of these nutrients alone.” – So far so good for THD. But it does look like you’d have to keep your protein and fat separated too, not just carbs and fat.

“Overall, glucose and insulin scores were highly correlated…. However, protein-rich foods and bakery products (rich in fat and refined carbohydrate) elicited insulin responses that were disproportionately higher than their glycemic responses.” – We know about the bakery products, but protein? Gulp.

Would love to hear if this issue has been resolved re. THD.

I try to steer clear of soy milk (highly processed, and soy is best eaten in its fermented forms like tempeh, miso, natto, tamari, or you run the risk of reactions to the phytoestrogens in the plant). Lots of information on this from the Weston A. Price Foundation.

I like the taste of rice milk, but avoid it now because it often contains sunflower oil (I avoid seed oils, unless I can be sure they’re cold-pressed, since many are highly processed, heat-treated and often rancid – which is why the have to be bleached and deodorized before being sold). Here’s Sally Fallon speaking about seed oils: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_O46Bml5JU

http://www.naturalfoodfinder.co.uk/unpasteurised-raw-milk-uk

At least a couple of them (including Hook & Son, and Beaconhill Farm) provide the milk by mail-order.

By the way, in my reading about milk/milk intolerances, I remember reading that it isn’t actually lactose that most people are intolerant to – it’s casein, the protein in milk which is signficantly denatured when the milk is pasteurized. This is why many people can drink raw milk without any problems, even when pasteurized milk disagrees with them.

There’s lots of information on this subject in Sally Fallon’s book “Nourishing Traditions”, and on the website http://www.realmilk.com

The studies were not AT ALL relying on the accuracy of GI! They were relying on the exact opposite (especially with regard to specific foods). That is, the scientists agree with you! They were very firm on the idea that the glucose response (glycaemic index– GI) does not always predict insulin response (insulanaemic index– II) [and, therefore, the fat-storing capability of the food, might I add], and that was one of the main points that the studies were making.

My concern is not with GI, or even carbohydrate content. (While, I do find this interesting, I’m not concerned enough to count carbs; it’s enough to know not to mix fat and carb.)

Rather, my concern is with the INSULIN (fat-storing hormone) findings of the studies (regardless of whether they correlate with GI or carb content). According to the studies: Milk (whether whole or skim) is “a potent insulin secretagogue” (meaning it produces lots of insulin). They ruled out that it was the lactose alone in milk that produces the insulin. They also ruled out that it was the fat in milk that produces extra insulin. The results “suggest that some factor within the PROTEIN fraction was responsible for milk’s insulinotropic [insulin-producing] effect” (emphasis added), probably the amino acids. Additionally, they noted that except for cheese, ALL milk products “(whole milk, skimmed milk, yoghurt, ice cream, cottage cheese and fermented milk) have been shown to have potent insulinotropic properties that may have far-reaching health effects….[The study also confirms] that consumption of milk induces a reactive hypoglycaemia.” (All the test subjects appeared to have similar insulin test results– large amount of blood insulin with corresponding hypoglycaemia, across the board. It didn’t matter whether the subjects were healthy or diabetic, men or women. So, unless every single test subject had an unknown milk intolerance…. It appears to be just a fact about milk that affects everyone.) They conclude that “clearly, further research is needed to elucidate milk’s potential to influence metabolism adversely.”

The quotes above are from an online version of a study that was in the “British Journal of Nutrition” (2005). It was called “Dissociation of the glycaemic and insulinaemic responses to whole and skimmed milk”. The scientists were Garrett Hoyt, Matthew S. Hickey and Loren Cordain.

Another study I read on the significant insulin producing capabilities of milk concluded that more research should be done on milk so that it can be used to help type 2 diabetics to effectively produce MORE insulin.

I’m only responding with all this info, Zoe, beacause the studies seem to indicate that the insulin-producing capability of milk is large and it’s clearly NOT related to JUST it’s carb content. If the studies are true (and there is more than one study out there showing this), then it seems that it might have some small impact on the principles of The Harcombe Diet (particularly with regard to Fat Meals)– darn it!

For example, if I have skim milk with cereal (oats, wheat, whatever, no sugar and assuming no intolerances), I’ve just had carb + carb. This is okay, but according to the studies, I would have to accept the fact that one of those carbs (skim milk) is producing even MORE insulin than its carb content alone would indicate. Alright, so I enjoy my cereal with milk and just accept that I’ve got a whack-load of insulin swimming around in my body, what with all the carbs in the cereal and in the milk, and whatever else it is that’s also in milk that produces additional insulin. In this example I’ve gone to all the trouble of making sure my cereal is unrefined and therefore producing less comparative insulin, but I’ve topped it with something that scientists are researching purely because of its insulinotropic abilities. This would be true whether I was someone who was “sensitive” to milk or not. Therefore, this might be perfectly fine for someone who is not trying to lose weight, but might slow or stop the weight loss for someone who is. They may still be perfectly fine as long as they are choosing to have fat meals for lunch and dinner.

Let’s look at a dairy inclusive fat meal, say veal with a cream sauce and green vegies: Before doing this extra research on milk and insulin, according to the principles of the Harcombe Diet, I would have assumed that this would produce barely any insulin, if any at all– after all, very few carbs! NOW, I’m thinking that if all dairy (except cheese) is going to go right ahead and produce all that insulin anyway, Zoe, you may unfortunately be leading people into assuming something that isn’t true. If the scientists are right, the insulin-producing cream is going to store the fat in the meat and cream (at least some of it) despite not having mashed potatoes with it.

This makes sense with my hypothesis about babies above, and with your comment on breastmilk being a complete food– which I entirely agree with. I was only suggesting that perhaps ONE of the reasons WHY it is such a complete food for mammal babies (human milk for human babies, cow milk for cow babies, etc.) is because of its insulinotropic ability to store and use every single bit of it’s fat content– a storage ability that does not appear to come from the carb component alone as it is a storage ability that is far in excess of what would be expected from its carb content and is (weirdly) linked to the protein component (one study suggested the whey component– I have no idea whether the whey IS the protein component).

As for wheat being the “culprit” in the breakfast I mentioned– in the studies done, the milk was not taken with wheat; it was consumed alone, so the study data about insulin is about milk alone.

Regarding milk, wheat and me– Well, I haven’t yet started THD, but for the past nearly 4 weeks, I’ve not had any milk or dairy (except for a nibble of cheese at a party last night). I’ve also only had about 3 meals in this same time frame that contained any amount of wheat and didn’t have any in the first 2 weeks. (I’ve only had fruit once or twice a week, and I cut out sugar and caffeine.) Just a little experiment I’ve been putting myself through. While I do love the taste of milk, I honestly feel I could live quite well without it with no cravings or “need” for it; I just don’t wish to give it up for life if I don’t have to. Over the past 4 weeks, I haven’t found myself craving either wheat or milk, and I found them fairly easy to cut out; sugar and caffeine were much more tempting for me, but still doable.

What I really, really CRAVE is a ten-second breakfast preparation (probably unrealistic I know). Yet that’s what I used to have before the last 4 weeks– shake out the home-made muesli, pour on the milk (the muesli is mainly oats and only occasionally has wheat, although now I’m going to have to leave out the dried fruit, nuts and seeds).

I hope I’m not coming across as nitpicky and troublesome. I really just want to arrive at the truth and begin a lifestyle of healthy living armed with the best information that current food science can provide. (And I certainly mean good food science, like the stuff with which you have provided us, Zoe, as opposed to what government officials prescribe for the masses.) Thank you for all the help so far. Your dedication to finding out the truth about obesity is inspiring.

For myself, I just never want to assume that I know everything there is to know about something– like milk. So that when I come across new info, I want to investigate its veracity. And I wanted to share it with you, and hear your thoughts about how it might impact some of the dairy recommendations in the Harcombe Diet. As an obesity researcher who has done significant research on how insulin production affects weight loss, I assumed you might be interested in additional research that shows that a particular food (included liberally in your dietary recommendations) that does not appear to be behaving as expected (ie. insulin production not related to carb content alone & the fact that it’s considered by scientists to be a potent insulin secretagogue).

Or if this research is old news to you, I wanted to ask why you think dairy is perfectly fine with no restrictions except skim with carbs and fat/skim with fat… given what you obviously know about what insulin does to the human body. Do you have info that I don’t?

I really don’t wish to come across as overly-critical or condemning of this eating plan. I love this diet and respect the science behind it. I just wanted to offer some information about milk that perhaps you had not previously considered. And I wanted to ask your advice as to how this new info might be incorporated into your overall plan.

If the research can be believed (and I don’t see why not unless you are aware of other studies that invalidate the ones I’ve read), then perhaps if someone is slower to lose weight than another whilst drinking milk (and other dairy), has got to do more with HOW MUCH milk they drink, rather than the idea that they might be intolerant to it. Since you don’t limit the amount of dairy in your eating plan, people will inevitably apply the principles differently to their own diets (albeit accurately and still according to the “rules”).

If the problem is with the milk itself being a super insulin-inducing food no matter what you do to it (whole or skim) or what you eat it with (fat or carb), then there will be vastly differing results for different applications to a person’s diet. Some will have a small dash of milk on water-based oatmeal, others will have milk-based oatmeal with 2 additional cups of milk (not exaggerating, I know a guy like this). Others who don’t have six kids and only need to get to work at 10am might have bacon and eggs every day. Each of these people is eating within the rules of the Harcombe Diet, and provided they have done the “self-testing” about food intolerance honestly and completely, we can work on the assumption that they aren’t intolerant to milk, some just may like it more than others, or find it a more convenient option than other breakfast foods. And convenience seems a pretty big draw-card in today’s world as people make their choices about what foods to include in their diets.

If the research about milk and insulin is true, maybe it would be a wise idea to recommend that dairy products be consumed in moderation in Phase 2 (similar to avocados), and possibly only skim with carbs and little or none with fat meals, as opposed to “freely as long as you drink skim with carbs and whole/skim with fat”. If the research is true, people should lose weight even more quickly this way despite no further necessary reduction in calories or fat (eg. they have grated cheese, which isn’t apparently insulinotropic, on meat instead of cream sauce, thus still maintaining fat and calorie content, more or less).

If the research is true, it would probably be a good idea to mention the insulinotropic nature of milk in your work and explain that this effect is not due ONLY to the carbs in milk, but also to something in the protein component, likely amino acids.

If the research is true, this could be a good thing (or maybe I’m reaching?) because it may explain why THD may not work for a small percentage of people. Maybe they’re obeying the THD rules perfectly, but are simply having too much milk for anyone’s metabolism (let alone theirs, which could be reduced from a lifetime of calorie counting). This means that you wouldn’t have to direct them to The Atkins Diet” as a last resort (since if this IS the problem, that diet would only work because with the even greater reduction of carbs dairy might also be naturally reduced (eg. no cereal in the mornings means no milk on it). Instead, they should be told to stick with this diet, as it’s much healthier than Atkins, but look at their dairy intake; they should be told the truth about the insulinotropic nature of milk (assuming the scientists are accurate) and then work to incorporate this knowledge into THD. (Or maybe you could do this for us? Pretty please? Since you know way more about insulin than me.)

If this research is true, and people have been completely honest about their intolerances and have checked and re-checked milk (for withdrawal symptoms, cravings, etc.), then I wouldn’t be stating outright that they are intolerant to it. I really don’t think its helpful to assume that if someone mentions that they like the taste of milk and could happily drink it every day (yet can go off it for weeks extremely easily with no cravings and no symptoms upon returning to it), that they are likely milk intolerant. If it’s true that milk isn’t like a “drug” for them, then telling them to cut it out completely, because it must be intolerance, doesn’t address the reality of what scientists have discovered about the insulinotropic effects of dairy (except cheese) on anyone’s metabolism! If they cut out dairy completely, they deprive themselves of an entire food group that could be very nutritionally beneficial to them if drunk in moderation and with a few extra guidelines. (Besides, when people are truly intolerant to milk, as far as I understand it, it’s mainly to the lactose. The lactose intolerance theory doesn’t adequately explain weight gain or lack of weight loss since research shows that the fat-storing hormone, insulin, is produced from more than just the lactose, and this affects regular healthy individuals, not just lactose intolerant ones.)

If the research is true, then all dairy (skim or whole) produces large amounts of the fat-storing hormone, insulin.

SO, ZOE, THIS IS MY QUESTION: Is the research true? Why or why not? Are you able to help me understand this better?

I WAS ALSO CURIOUS ABOUT: I know I wasn’t overly-clear about my focus on insulin in my first post, but I’d still really love to know what you think about SKIM MILK VS. FRUIT COMPOTE on an oat-based cereal (or wheat or any grain, provided that intolerance is not the issue)? Especially with regard to INSULIN…. since, I guess that after the research I’ve done, I’m no longer satisfied that either GI OR carbs necessarily provides an accurate assessment of a meal’s ability to store fat. It really comes down to the insulin… and it seems clear that in a few particular foods (one of which is dairy) even carb content tells us squat about what’s really going on with regard to insulin.

I love your eating plan. I want to love it even more, which I could if you incorporated this information about insulin and dairy into it.

Thanks for your patience,
Naomi

“We also know from glycaemic index studies that cooking foods and processing foods increases their glycaemic index, so cooked carrots have a higher glycaemic index (33 to 85) than raw carrots (16 to 30). One of the problems with the glycaemic index as a tool in weight loss is the huge variation in scores that can be found. In the cooked carrots example just above, the score of 85 for cooked carrots comes from Montignac and the score of 33 was found for peeled and boiled carrots in “the home of the glycaemic index” (www.glycaemicindex.com). Had the carrots been peeled, diced and boiled, their GI would have been 49, according to the same source. This source also lists raw carrots as having a GI of 16 compared to the 30 listed for raw carrots on the Montignac web site. Counting calories is daft enough. If I were going to count anything, I would want it to be substantially more accurate and consistent than the glycaemic index.”

So, I’ve not read these studies but I would not give much credence to something trying to accurately quantify GI indices when the whole thing is all over the shop.
Just go by the carb content – I’ve only got proper milk in the fridge and this is 4.7 grams of carb per 100ml. I can easily get 10g of carb in a cappuccino therefore. Fine for me – not necessarily great for someone very carb sensitive.

The most likely culprit in the breakfast you mention is whole-wheat cereal! Wheat is the thing most likely to make people regain or stop losing in my experience. Have porridge oats instead – whole grain, but not whole -wheat!

Babies put on weight because breastmilk is a complete food for them and that’s what they need to do to survive! It’s not a valid comparison for adults – breastmilk is fab for saturated fat to make baby super healthy!

Your final sentence makes me think milk/dairy intolerance – if you really want it that much, you are better off not going back to it!
Please do check out our club – it sounds like you’ve got lots of interesting questions and I think you’d really enjoy it!
http://www.theharcombedietclub.com
Very best wishes – Zoe

I have a question about milk and insulin:

I’ve just recently come across your eating plan, and I’m very excited about it. The most eye-opening idea I discovered in your book was the role of insulin in storing body fat when carbohydrates are eaten. It makes so much sense to eat unrefined carbs to avoid producing too much insulin or producing a sudden insulin spike.

I have recently come across a few studies online that study the affect of both whole and skim milk on insulin production. Scientists have discovered that although milk has quite a low GI, it produces a large amount of insulin (far more than accounts for the sugar in milk). They further discovered that this extra insulin production is linked to the whey component of milk, and is applicable to both skim and whole. (Just for your info: There were 3 or 4 other foods also whose insulin production was vastly greater than their GI would indicate. For the vast majority of foods, however, GI is a fantastic indicator of insulin production.)

I was thinking that when I get onto Phase 2, I would go back to having cereal and milk for breakfast, with a few changes: no sugar in the cereal, 100% whole grain, and skim milk so it can be eaten with carbs– which, as I understand it, would fit quite well with a carb-based meal on your eating plan. However, now that I have come across this evidence that milk produces far more insulin than it’s GI would indicate, I’m uncertain that this is the right course of action.

So, my questions…

Are you aware of these studies? What are your thoughts? (I’d post the links, but I’m “internet incompetent”. I just googled milk and insulin.)

Could this be a reason why this plan may not work for a small percentage (those who go back to the easy option of whole-wheat cereal and milk every day for breakfast)?

Could this be why most babies, given a sufficient amount of only breastmilk, seem to have no probs quickly putting on chubby baby fat, despite using most of the fat and carbs in milk for growth?

What do you think about a raw fruit puree or cooked fruit compote as the “liquid” component on unrefined, no sugar cereal? Would this produce less insulin than milk, since milk seems to produce an abnormal amount for its sugar content?

I guess what I’m really hoping is that you have a secret study up your sleeve that somehow proves that the studies I came across are complete bunkum. (I love milk, and I’m even willing to “downgrade” to skim just so I can have it on cereal.)

Anyway, hoping you can help,
Naomi

I’ll make a note to try to update this – in the meantime, the advice we give in our ‘help people eat real food’ club (www.theharcombedietclub.com) is very much – if you can’t tolerate cow’s milk, try raw milk next. Don’t try all the other variants unless you like the idea of drinking the slime left over from boiling soy beans!

We sadly can’t get raw milk where we live and, if big business has their way, it will be like that across America before long. As Sally Fallon Morrel says – doesn’t that just confirm how valuable the food chain is? Big business can’t even tolerate a small farmer here and there going ‘off message’. Survival of the wisest – we’ll be there!

Very best wishes – Zoe

I realize that the focus of your book is weight loss, but these factors are important too. When people eat more nutrient-dense foods, they are less likely to overeat.